Meditations on Alpha

This conversation sparks from a mini-conversation over @ Rollo’s and from The Thread.

The scenario is 2 decent looking chicks are the only options at a bar.  Jock Bro and his two cronies show up.

  • The better looking chick opens up Dude Bro.
  • Dude Bro is used to the attention.
  • Fast Forward a few minutes and the dudes start entertaining the chicks.

While they’re having a jolly old time at the bar – Mr. Smooth enters the frame.

  • He makes a beeline for the chick
  • goes to her side
  • locks in body wise
  • whispers in her ear
  • basically commits grand larceny for the Jock Dude and his bros.

I don’t have Rollo’s thread open, but Mr. Smooth even sends one of the dudes away by moving a chair or something.   So not only did he outclass Jock Dude, grab the chick, he even sidelined the underlings.


My analysis isn’t really on Rollo – but it does meld with what we’re talking about over at the Moma’s and Rudebwoy’s thread – about what Alpha REALLY means.  So this post is putting together a few things I read today.

There is a textbook definition of alpha.

There are also examples from nature.  Many of the natural examples are in dispute. The OG example was about wolves, and that has found to be untrue.  I read something today about tracking animal movements within herds – and the so-called omegas were still able to gather their own cronie and get stuff done.   Contrast that with the Walruses and Lions – where the top male gets all the best food and mates with the majority of the women.

In the game-o-sphere, we have confirmation bias, so we like the Lion/Walrus alpha model and discard things that don’t fit that model.   From here, you should be hit with all sorts of ads for Jack3d (do they still make Jack#d), Creatine, and the Dodge Demon.  Oh wait, I don’t have any advertising on this site.

But recent times has a very narrow vision of what Alpha is.  Based on the forum it’s almost always some Oil Rig guy in Belarus or some place where women are women.

You know me though.  I think this alpha stuff is some bull.  Old school PUA basically debunked the idea that you needed to be this manly man in order to get the type of relationship you wanted.  Same with the money.

Most of the time, I mock that whole “alpha” stuff.

I mock it, because I came up in this game in black clubs.  In a black club there are plenty of tall, well built, black dudes. Some are rich. Some well dressed. Some good dancers.  Some very personable.  Many were very loud.  And despite all of these natural advantages, they would fail time and time again.

The worst absolute worst type of dude at this club was probably the most in terms of alpha.  Alpha often means “taking what you want from life”.  The guys that were going gorilla, and grabbing any chick by the hand, forearm, or bicep were the worst.

Oh yeah, she’s enjoying herself

This is the sort of thing the Beyonce’s and Demi Lovato’s of the world have nightmares about.

But that’s just black clubs right?

When I go to mixed clubs or lily white clubs – it’s the same basic patterns.  Guys with “the goods”, the look of “alpha” get initial attention, rap to chicks, and you see the chicks fail to light up, sometimes die on the inside.  You gotta add a lot of alcohol to the mix for the off beat “grind on her ass from the back” “move” to work.

But, hold up a sec.  (c) Bushwick Bill

Before we throw out the baby with the bathwater, let’s go a little deeper.

Sometimes this neanderthal shit – this take what you want mentality – does indeed work and sometimes it doesn’t. I’m not gonna let my personal bias stop me from trying to break it down.

The scene I started this with was probably a genuine in the real world alpha.    Tall, good looks, leader of men, took what he wanted.  Now if you read what Sentient dropped, basically he went into dancing monkey mode with the chicks for laughs.  When you’re at the top of the mountain – you can do that.   The King gets to do whatever he wants.

But then you had a literal Alpha Male Other Guy (AMOG) come into his kingdom and basically pull a Rhaegar on his Lyanna Stark.

Who was the alpha here?  The strong tall guy?  Or the skinny tall guy who took the girl?  Who would win in a fight?  Who had more money?

And that’s one of the reasons I dislike all this He-Man stuff masquerading as game.  Leaning on the contemporary short sighted ideals about manhood, manliness, alpha – does not let you figure out what happened here and why?  Because she should have stuck with the stronger guy.  She should have done the quick mental calculus and realized that the skinny guy had a lower SMV.

Let’s take a quick detour.

So part of the patented Archie “Get to Know a Girl During an Ice Cream Social” process (only $49.97 at your local torrent site) – is after you’ve finished a banana split and she’s chilling in the afterglow – you ask her

“When did you know you wanted to kiss me?”

“When did you know that you liked me?”

“When did you know we’d end up here?”

As a technical note – If you understand my game – this isn’t about trying to figure out THROUGH HER, when she fell for you.  You do this as part of the process to build trust after the two scoops have melted.  Again the sub-communications are more important than the communications.

You can’t really trust her recollection (or your own). People have notoriously poor memories.  Memories aren’t like things recorded in books, they’re reconstructed.  That’s why you can get kids to remember abuse that didn’t happen, or getting lost at the mall when they never did.   You have people repeate stories, stop them, ask clarifying questions – and in order to please you – they modify “the truth”.  It’s the basis of many a false interrogation. With the game, a chick that just gave you her French vanilla, often wants to feel close to you.  Not always though.  *Hats off to my ladies that hit it and quit it*

People don’t especially remember EXACTLY what they were thinking.  I also don’t want to get into thinking versus feeling debate.

So even if you can get a plausible answer to this question, you’ll never be objectively sure at what point her brain chemistry started to favor your jeans genes.

Also keep in mind, most of communication is non-verbal.  It’s touches, facial expressions, micro-reactions, silences that hang, etc.

So this has happened to me a few times, I ask the question and a chick says

“I didn’t know I wanted to kiss you, until you kissed me”

Suddenly the Alpha style starts to make sense.

Mr. Smooth in Sentient’s story is absolutely sure of himself.  That he’d get the girl, that the guys would be no competition, that everything would go according to plan.    Guys that don’t get the game relegate Jock Bro as some Cro Magnon that would get blown out.  They need to find a flaw in his version of alpha to keep the idea of alpha going. But that’s not actually what’s happening here.

Had Mr. Smooth not shown up, Jock Bro had enough buy in from his girl that they would have been eating some rocky road at the end of the night.  “Alpha” would have won.

Mr. Smooth came in “alpha” as well, just a different sort of alpha.

He was entitled.  He was entitled not because the girl showed interest, not like the Jock.

To bring this back to my story about chicks only deciding they wanted to kiss me as I kissed them*- to an extent you can look at my experience and Mr. Smooth’s experience as the bending of reality because you’re so sure of yourself.

*The chick was showing me signs that she was ready well before I went in for the kiss.  Lingering looks, embraces, over-laughing – All the basic signs that people around you can observe.  Usually when a chick is falling hard, her GF’s come through and yank her by the pony tail so she doesn’t make a “mistake”. But it was a notable thing for her to say.

I don’t want to call it visionary game – but that’s essentially what it is.  Mr. Smooth was a visionary.  The idea of the visionary is that you get people to see your vision.  The vision itself can be compelling – but your belief in the vision is what motivates others.  Your certainty.  Ideally it is action first and explanation later.

Mr. Smooth didn’t break out a manifesto. But his certainty that everything would go right. That the guys in the group would assume that he knew her, that she would respond favorably, and that the new status quo would basically change the game.

We’ll never know what he whispered in her ear – but it doesn’t really matter does it?


Do You Even Need Game?


I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again.  If you’re aim is to meet a couple of girls and take them back to your place for ice cream and what not – super strategizing game is overkill.

In regular life people connect when

  • Tipsy guy approach tipsy girl
  • He says his little spiel
  • She likes what she sees and hears or doesn’t care and
  • He manages to gets past all the bs to get her back to his place.

That’s not really game, because she’s making that decision based on what she likes, with little to no input from him.  All he is doing is making himself available.

The thing to keep in mind is that she could choose someone else that night who’s more to her liking.  It just so happens that Mr. Right didn’t make his way over to her, and the guy she ends up talking to is good enough.

Chicks bang guys that aren’t their personal 10’s, they do so regularly.  That’s essentially the norm.  And if you consider things on a superficial level- how much time they put into their appearance vs how much time he does – it’s hard for a girl to not date “down”.

Why does she get with Mr. Okay?

  • Maybe it’s her time of the month
  • Maybe it’s her birthday
  • Maybe she wants revenge
  • Maybe she’s not feeling attractive (This is an interesting one, I need to make a mental note on this. But the game theory a lot of us work with – is that girls often reach outside of themselves to figure out how to feel.  That’s good leverage to have on chicks.)

And all of these reasons are totally fine. There’s so many women out there that go home by themselves because most guys don’t even go out. And of the ones that do go out, they often refuse to meet even the low bar of presentability, approaching her, and attempting to connect.

For above average results, the average looking guy with average socialization probably just needs a makeover to look “cool” and a month of going out every night to get over his approach anxiety with cute girls.

From a veteran’s perspective, whatever you teach that guy is not game, but placebo. He’s got a few lines and some basic idea of where the interaction is going to go.  He’s off the races.

So what’s happening here?

As we say in my neck of the woods, he’s getting chose.

In all honesty that’s what most guys need, even if our culture has made normal hooking up damn near illegal.


How much does average game really cost?

  • Do you have a place of your own?
  • A car?
  • Can you afford to go out,
  • pay some cover charges,
  • Pay for parking
  • Buy a few drinks?
  • Own a pair of jeans that fits you
  • Some shoes from Aldo

That’s basically all the “wealth” you need. To be fair, that might be more than the average college guy. But if you’ve got a middle class job, you’re pretty much set in terms of money.

Having a phat downtown crib in some cosmopolitan city with a private roof deck with a pool, tastefully decorated, and a drop top Benz, bespoke and designer closet just isn’t necessary.

Consider that most of these 18-22 year old girls are living with roommates (often it’s mom and dad) and driving Hyundais.  If they’re doing better, it’s because the parents have money.    What a young girl wants more than “provisioning” is fun and excitement.

Girls that are slightly older may be in the work force and have what you have or more – but she can’t see your Junior One Bedroom at the bar.

Having the “lifestyle”  and dating girls that are of marriageable age (23-28) that’s counter-productive. They see a cool guy with stuff = marriage material. Suddenly she’s got to be in her best behavior and pretend she’s not a “fun girl”.

In terms of other typical attractors

  • Lifting weights helps a tiny bit.  But being slim is better than being fat.  Having obvious muscles is better than being slim.  Getting to bodybuilder frame is beyond overkill.
  • Being tall helps get you attention.  If you’re not tall (which is now 6’3″ and better.  Damn you kids and your better nutrition)
  • Actually knowing people in the scene, helps far more than both of those in my experience. But local “fame” comes with going out a fair amount and making the effort to meet people. Get on a few promoters lists, know some bartenders and dj’s, and keep track of events in town – and most guys would get more pussy than they could handle.

Take some photos of you looking cool, put them on your instagram/tinder profile, come up with a few messages – you’re basically the Hugh Hefner of cute chicks.

That upper echelon of chicks that guys fantasize about, the “I only date CEO’s and Rockstars” – most of the time you’re not even going to be in the same room as these people.

So rethink your dedication to the game thing.   Look a little better, go out more, and you’ll have the conventional relationships with cute girls that you crave.

But you just don’t want the norm do you?  In which case, keep reading


Wikipedia Game?

Shout to ijjji putting this up

This is a taste of the above.

Contemporary interest in superficial charm goes back to Hervey M. Cleckley‘s classic study (1941) of the sociopath: since his work it has become widely accepted that the sociopath/psychopath was characterised by superficial charm and a disregard for other people’s feelings.[5] According to Hare, “Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything.”[6]

Subsequent studies have refined, but not perhaps fundamentally altered, Cleckley’s initial assessment. In the latest diagnostic review, Cleckley’s mix of intelligence and superficial charm has been redefined to reflect a more deviant demeanour, talkative, slick, and insincere.[7] A distinction can also be drawn between a subtle, self-effacing kind of sociopathic charm,[8] and a more expansive, exhilarating spontaneity which serves to give the sociopath a sort of animal magnetism.[9]

There’s some fairly good game on this forum, but you gotta dig for it.


Little Finger and Sansa Pt 2

Ten more quotes and then we’ll get into the reason why I put this up in the first place.

Petyr is about his paper.

To an extent, this mirrors the contemporary take on game.  With enough money you can get what you want.  Now, I can tell you when I went from low 5 figures to mid 6 figures – my game options got worse.  I leaned on my paper too hard.  We’ve talked about how to use money to increase your game before so I won’t rehash that.

Out with the Old and in with the New

In this scene Petyr destroys a snow castle.  He’s trying to school Sansa on to stop living in the past and fighting old battles, and to think about doing something new, something better.

What is the meaning of truth?

Now I’m not saying you gotta lie.  But unless you’re in the laboratory, truth really is in the eye of the beholder.  Petyr lies and lies and lies.  But he tells lies that people can believe.  There’s a great portion in the book where the King’s council are trying to come up with a rumor about Stannis to counter the ones circulating about Cersei and Jaime.  Baelish wants to spread the rumor that the child of Stannis was fathered by the court jester, Patchface.  The facts don’t matter in this case.

The Game Doesn’t End

When you’re in the game, no matter what you get, you always want more.  I’ve dated perfection, 3 times.  LTR’d all 3 of them.  Lived with all 3 of them.  Now my eye didn’t wander (much), but once you’ve got a princess in your life – your attention turns to something else.  That’s human nature, and understanding that helps you in your game.  A man shouldn’t castigate himself for wanting something new.  He should also recognize that he may be the prince that she was promised, but even chicks get bored with perfection.

What a player does?

The traditional pimp, player, hustler, con man, preacher, businessman, politician – what he does is create a fantasy in the mind of his audience.  Little Finger makes sure to be entertaining.

All this game that my boy has, how did he fall off?

The Downfall

George (RR Martin) always manages to write some weakness into his characters.  Petyr’s love of Catelyn and not her sister ends up coming back to haunt him.  This is attachment to his “one-itis” may be the thing that makes his house of cards fall apart.

Now, I don’t think this is how LF died in the show is how it’s going to play out in the books.  For one, the tension between Sansa and Arya was weird, and their master plan involved a deus ex machina in Weirwood Boy Bran.

The real tragedy is how Sansa felt about Little Finger, and that’s where the game lesson is.

So for those that don’t follow the show or have read the books, lemme break it down in player terms.

Little Finger is trying to capture the Iron Throne.  How he plans to do so is not clear, but he likes to improvise and plan.  He starts a war between Starks and the Lannisters, but then saves the daughter of the only woman he’s ever loved, Sansa.

In the books, Sansa is learning the game at the foot of the master.  In the show, we get a little bit of that at the end of one of the seasons, before she’s sent to Ramsay.  I’m not clear on the exact timing, but LF does make a move on this teenager and plants a fat one on her lips.  From there, she’s going to the North.

What happens on the show is that whatever meager skills that Little Finger dropped on her, she’s not sharp enough to manipulate sociopath Ramsay.  (Contrast that with Margaery Tyrell getting schooled on the game by the Queen of Thorns and learning how to play Joffrey)



I don’t want to get into all that unpleasantness of Sansa in Winterfell.  By the time that turn of the wheel finished, Little Finger comes to her rescue again. Saving her, her brother, and regaining them their castle.

You’d think she’d be on her knees for Little Finger.  He gave her the game, her family, and her home.

A player would never make this mistake.  You give a chick everything, and all you’re gonna get is ingratitude.  So the showrunners are clearly not players and don’t want Little Finger to remain one.

They did get Sansa’s reaction right.  She has nothing but contempt for him.

Within the universe of the show, he basically played the provider, and he got played for it.

Even though this is fiction, Sophie Turner’s disgust for LF carries straight through the show.  She finds him vile, the man who saved her life twice.

So one of the things that I took away from this – You can’t attempt to make a chick entirely happy.  To do so, she’ll have no more use for you.

Lemme turn the mic to you guys?

What do you think he did to make her loathe him so?




She Starts Talking About Another Guy

So you meet a chick, you’re trying to make the connection, and in the meantime she starts talking about the lame dudes that she’s messed with.

What do you do?

This was the problem on the forum.

This is something I’ve faced when I’m at a venue and aiming to get into a girl’s good graces, but also after I’ve gotten into the good graces and we’re on our way out.

The instance of the forum happens in the electronic context – but the issues are very much the same.

On the forum

  • Boy matches with girl on dating site.
  • Initial conversation ensues over text and messaging apps.
  • The conversation turns to sex
  • Girl complains about some two minute man.

For a lot of guys, this is a problem.

“I’m trying to talk to you, but you’re talking about someone else.”

What does a guy do?  Let’s break this down into 3 guys.

  1. Square – The guy who’s never heard of game.
  2. Young Gun – The guy who’s new to the game, a little bit of experience, intermediate with the game.
  3. The Veteran – Not only has the veteran internalized the game, he understands the idea behind the responses.

What does the Square do?

  1. Because his manhood is threatened, because his chances are threatened – he aims to shut the girl down asap. He wants to dictate what kind of topics she can talk to him about.
  2. Say nothing in the moment, but ruminate on why the girl “disrespected” him.
  3. Go along with it.
  4. Make a joke about it and change the subject

What does the Young Gun Do?

  1. First, he assigns a malicious motive to the chick, and thinks that she’s trying to test him
  2. Then he uses one of the patented 5 responses to a test
    1. Ignore
    2. Mishear and purposefully misinterpret
    3. Blame Her
    4. Try to body language/sub-communicate silence
    5. Agree and Amplify
  3. Restart with more attraction material

In both cases, the Square and the Young Gun – both go with solutions before they understand the nature of the problem.  They get this stimulus, and now they must respond.  They are reacting, not acting.

So What’s the Problem?

Why does some random girl making some throwaway comment put him on tilt, shakes his confidence so much that he goes into a fight or flight response?

It’s a few things in my mind

  • He’s not used to how girls talk
  • He expects a certain level of respect that MUST be afforded to him
  • The whole connection has to be controlled.

Classic PUA (Mystery Method and all the derivatives) and Contemporary Game (Red Pill plus being Alpha) don’t ask the man to investigate why he is feeling a certain way.

If the man were to stop and ask himself

Why am I running around like a chicken with its head cut off because this random girl who means nothing to me mentioned some random guy don’t know?

Then he’ll start to understand what to do pro-actively, instead of reacting. After you get down the techniques – game then becomes something of “self” control, as opposed to trying to control the girl or every situation.  Gaining self control is one of the benefits that can be employed in the rest of your life.

The Girl’s Response

Whether or not the girl realizes that he’s reacting poorly, and doesn’t have a “solid frame” at the moment she makes this comment is not really the issue.  She could actually notice through body language that the man gets weak when she talks about other men.  His weakness shows a lack of deep confidence.  In general, I think most of us veterans believe that in order to pull a chick but also to keep her – you need 100% confidence at all times.

If he falters, the lioness who eats beta chumps for breakfast, will crush the guy and keep it moving. The considerate girl, initially, she’ll tone that part of her self down.  She wants to get with this guy and doesn’t want to scare her away. Deep down the “nice” girl is a lioness too.  If she has to tiptoe around trying not to her her guy’s feelings – she’s constrained.  That will not last.


Q. Why don’t guys “get in touch” with their feelings?

A. Because in the world of men, we have no feelings beyond sleep, wanting to fuck, hunger, and aggression. Elsewise, we are robots.

Because we aspire to be robots, or at least emotionally consistent in our dealings – we don’t see when the code of manhood gets in the way of what we’re trying to accomplish.

But sometimes the code doesn’t help.

One of the problems dudes from rough hoods deal with when they start to mingle with the rest of society, is their survival strategy doesn’t fit the environment. He dresses tough and acts tough in places where there is only loss for that behavior. You might be a pitbull at Westminster kennel club, but these poodles aren’t trying to fight.

The new guy dealing with this situation is applying defense mechanisms in a situation that does not call for it.

So what’s happening here

Let’s take it a level deeper, why is he defensive, why is he threatened or hurt?

In the PUA days, the thought was that by letting her talk about other guys, he was becoming her best friend, entering the dreaded friend zone. Because she was talking to him like she would talk to a girlfriend. She was so comfortable and NOT sexually intrigued that she did not need to edit herself.

In the modern era, where guys are even less likely to think things through – this was a shit test and without saying a word he has communicated to the girl that he is a beta. “No way dude, I’m an alpha! I’m gonna put this bitch in her place!”

So an angry reaction happens, and the girl might tamp down, or she might get offended. In the case of the chick shutting herself off but still hanging – she now knows how to get under his skin. That’s not something she asked for, but it is a gift.

Why do old school guys and modern guys do this?

The old school PUA guy didn’t think of alpha/beta. Instead he thought he was losing a chance to get with the girl.  It’s a retread for him on all of those sad sack years of being the girlfriend with a dick. The “emotional tampon”

The new guy from the modern era, hopped up on being a macho man, has it worse – his sense of self, his ego is at stake.

On her side

Keep in mind, this chick is 105 lbs soaking wet, and just relays a funny (to her) anecdote as a way of keeping the conversation going.  She’s actually trying to connect.  So in this “getting to know one another” scenario, she is not thinking about boundaries.

She is not thinking that I’ve got the perfect double bind statement to emasculate this guy and use him for my entertainment.

So, this is not a test? Right?

And this is where being a veteran comes in to play.  It’s not an explicit conscious test on her part.  It’s not that kind of test. She’s not trying to uncover a flaw in the guy on purpose. But if he reacts poorly, she will take note of that.

Women and Testing

This is a key thing to understand about women in general. Some women will consciously and intentionally put you in a no win situation.  This is the chick that flirts with a guy that you don’t like to see what you’re gonna do about it, to get you jealous.

That happens, but is not the norm.  What happens more often, is that the guy finds himself in a situation where he doesn’t know what to do, reacts poorly, and the woman will take an emotional note of the guy.   He’s in stress, so now she’s in stress.

The classic one is the pornstar on a date with a regular guy.

  • They’re at a restaurant
  • The waiter brings him the wrong dish.
  • The guy doesn’t make a fuss.
  • He doesn’t stand up for himself.
  • She hates this
  • So she makes a big deal out of it on social media.

The key to this story was that she didn’t engineer the missing steak. But when he didn’t act the way that she thought he should, she went ballistic.

She reacted to his actions, but she didn’t test him.

Lemme push this idea even further. What you say when you make your approaches doesn’t matter that much. How she reacts doesn’t matter either that much either. But getting control over the pull comes down to how you handle her reactions.

Let’s get back to this problem of the chick bringing up sex with guys before you.

What does the Veteran Think?

She’s not testing him
She’s just making conversation.
She’s not editing herself, because really, who the fuck are you?

  • I am just one dick in a line of many.
  • I’m literally nobody to her.
  • I have some inherent value, but because if this is online dating, and she’s cute (even when she isn’t) – her inbox is full of guys that want to take her out in chances of fucking her.

If anything, she likes you and feels comfortable.

From the vet’s perspective, there’s nothing about her behavior to be alarmed about. This is typical behavior. These green boys going to inner Azerbaijan to find a virgin will have you convinced that this chick is some secret porn star slut that’s going to emasculate you and then steal all your money….

In my view they just don’t *censored* enough chicks.  Not enough hot young ones that just run on at the mouth and say whatever the fuck they feel at the time.

The Vet realizes that what’s really happening to him is that his is testing him.
That somehow his self image is being attacked.  But this attack comes from within.  She’s not trying to undermine him, but she

“This chick thinks you’re some little beta bitch boy that she can flaunt her sexuality at you, and you’ll never gonna get it.”

That’s some Newbie type thinking.

She’s not really testing a dude when she does this, it’s just her being her.


It’s 2 tests in a way.

Test #1 – a test for you – Can you always keep your emotions in check when you deal with a chick?

Test #2 – If you don’t get your emotions in check, she will see how much random comments will fuck with you. She not only sees this as you not being able to handle her, to handle chicks, but to handle LIFE.

If a chick that’s 105 lbs soaking wet can unsettle you with a comment – how strong are you really?

That’s what she’s thinking if you get butt hurt.

That might turn her off right then and there. If you have other positive qualities and she stays in your orbit – she now has a tool that she can use to control you. This broad ain’t getting all Dr. Doom and shit, making plans on plans – but if you react with negative emotions, she will reflect that. Bitches rarely recall the substance of fights, they do recall how your emotions and how they felt.

That’s where the game is always played.

To go a bit deeper.

A submissive chick will buckle before you see the full range of her personality. A lot of the dudes nowadays like a weak ass chick that rolls over at anything. You will end up having to live her life for her. You don’t want a chick that is afraid to show you (and the world) who she really is.

But a typical chick will just see you as weak.
An evil chick will use you.

And they get this from your reaction to some nonsense.

If a chick really wants to fuck with you, TRUST ME, she can.

You know how a dude can say some shit to start a fight at the drop of a hat, a chick can say some shit to you that will make Steve Urkle turn into War Machine.

What are you supposed to do?

Step #1 – Stay Non Reactive

For guys thinking that all hope is lost, and he’s in the friend zone

  • Stop defeating yourself
  • Start seeing it as her trying to relate, be funny, communicate

Why? Because you cannot lose the idea that this thing is going to happen.

For the guys who’s egos are greatly threatened – the new school guys that must put down any sort of behavior that is not entirely submissive

  • Don’t wrap your ego into this
  • Expect that the chick will talk about BS

You have to view her behavior as typical.

Step #2 – What do I want?

1) Admonish – He could go all Super cartoonish Roissy esque alpha and correct her. If you have other positive qualities that she’s digging, she might just take the correction and never bring up those topics again.  For the veteran, this is more about how he wants to run his life and affairs, more so than getting at one chick in particular.

2) Withdraw – He could play the aloof alpha and withdraw the emotional warmth every time she fucks up, and give her the warmth every time she does something right. Let her figure out how to behave based on how he reacts to her behavior. A lot of guys like this, but that’s something he does with a chick when she’s in his presence, or after they’ve made that connection.

In our situation, you can’t just play some waiting game over Text. there just isn’t enough sub-communication being sent like that.  In person, where the girl is constantly taking his temperature, her own, and the room’s – this is much easier to accomplish.  Over text – there’s not nuance.


These are two veteran options from the Alpha side of things.  Lots of naturals and accomplished players don’t get into the “mind game”/social engineering/applied psychology thing that I’m trying to teach you guys.

Lemme just say that the difference between a new guy or a square getting all huffy about a chick’s comments vs a Vet – is that the Vet is making a choice versus the Newbie reacting to the situation.  The Vet has no problems dropping a chick for the slightest of infractions.

The Veteran is trying to do 2 things

  • Keep his ego intact
  • Keep the chick on track to “Connection”


Vets know that chicks run off at the mouth 24/7.  It’s typical female behavior that you can observe anywhere.  You see it at work, at home, with your family, in school, on social media.  And it getting risque is not so beyond the pale that it doesn’t happen.

If she ain’t talking about guys she’s fucked, she’s gonna have a funny story about getting the runs, or how she hates her dad, how she tricked her boss at work, or “those fucking black guys, Oh I don’t mean you”

For newbs and guys that don’t fuck young hot girls – think that these chicks are on their P’s and Q’s when they deal with “A true alpha”.  I don’t really deal with the under 23 set that much (proxy for young and hot), but this type of behavior is normal.

Now I know that there are some RED PILL MOUTH BREATHERS out there saying – “She wouldn’t say that to George Clooney…” (Y’all know how much I hate this line of logic)

So what the vet does when the chick says some bullshit

  • Does Not React
  • Does Take Note
  • Uses what she says to get him closer to his goal.


So if the chick starts talking about the two minute man, the Vet runs with that idea of inadequate sex partners.   The new guy might try to one-up the girl, but what the Vet is trying to sub-communicate is that he’s okay with the girl’s sexuality.  He doesn’t need to verbalize it, but he takes what she says and goes either a level deeper, or to something adjacent.

So an adjacent topic would be getting her to talk about crazy internet hook up experiences, and he would have one in the databank that will lead to the right directions.  He wants to take some random comment from a chick and DIG DEEP, get her to go through all of the emotions just on this one topic.  Personally, I’ll dig into the sensuality of french fries if she starts talking about McDonald’s.

Going a level deeper is trying to figure out what makes the girl tick.  So the vet will cold read, or present a topic that gets her to explore her OWN feelings.

The reason the Vet does this is not necessarily to get her all hot and bothered and pull her libido by a string.  Instead, the Vet does these things to KEEP HIMSELF in check and keeps the conversation lively.

Now if she does get a “randy” from texting it becomes a tight rope if you can’t close.    This is similar to making out with a girl at the club and not being able to make the logistics easy for you to get her home in order to read the first chapter in Corinthians.

Keeping a chick warm over text is a topic for another time.

To recap

The Vet

  1. Does not react
  2. He takes notce
  3. He acts to move the conversation in a direction that gets him closer to connection


The Codification of Game

[Editor – @ crdr – if you’re reading hit me up in the comments]

From a discussion over at Rollo’s

Can you teach game?


In a seminar/class room setting?

Wouldn’t you have to codify the game?

Panic! OMG, the art is going to become a science.

I don’t mind the “codification” so much.

Before Mystery, it was FMAC, find, meet, attract, close.

Mystery was Attract, Comfort, Seduce.  And that evolved into routines with the idea of group theory (itself borrowing from their read of evolutionary psychology and my man Robert Cialdini- whom we have not discussed but shall this week). And since then there have been further refinements.

But nowadays the environment has changed. Online game is so important to the market of 18-30 year olds, that just being systematic about profiles, messages, and your date funnel – is likely to garner more “bible study” than hitting the clubs.

So you have this really weird situation where you can get girls to come straight to your apartment through Tinder and Uber for Netflix and Chill – but you don’t actually know what this chick’s personality is like outside of your smartphone interactions.

I digress.

To me, guys really should follow the recipe to the letter at first.

That’s why they codified the game in the first place.  Build a base so you understand how things vary.

Use routines so you understand that a routine statement can get your a bunch of predictable routine responses.

The use of codified/regimented almost robotic game basically demystifies how “complicated” girls are.  I say this, she does A, B, or C. I follow up with X,Y,Z, and she only goes in a few directions.

People really aren’t that complicated.  But that’s something that we intuitively know, but seem to forget with women.

In American culture we have scripts already.

  • “Hello, how are you doing?”
  • “Do you want fries with that”
  • “Paper or plastic”
  • “I just got engaged”
  • “My dog just died.

All of us know (or should know) what the responses are from a content perspective and from an emotional one. Just adapting that to meeting girls should be straight forward.

But there are a significant amount of guys that either don’t have basic human socialization skills, or they don’t know how to pay attention to detail. There’s a general lack of self-awareness, and overall empathy with others. The guys that are too sympathetic, they eventually learn to put themselves first for a change. The guys that lack it – only do the minimum.

The Importance of Basic Social Skills..Knowing the Line

After meeting Tyler, it’s clear that he did a shit ton of work on himself – not just spiritually and all that jazz – but learning basic human interactions. He’s hyper attuned to body language shifts and sub-communication. The sort of thing top salesman and good strippers learn how to do.  Incidentally, I’m always surprised when the peanut gallery folks say that he doesn’t have a game. Not saying he doesn’t have 99 other problems, but game ain’t one of em.

Even now, I see that Tyler’s Aspie tendencies show if you know what to look for. He likes to “riff” and keep the joke going past when it stops being funny. Like Family Guy in real life, but not meta, more for self-amusement.  But that’s him.  He’s got 7 figures, runs his own biz, travels the world, and has a ridiculous lay count

On video, Tyler and Julien do a “push it over the line, and then apologize and walk it back” interaction style. That’s a useful training wheel for shy guys, not so much for the Bulls in China shops.

I’m sure they’ve bagged a ton of chicks with that, probably 100’s more than me, but an actual cool guy either knows where the line is, or he doesn’t care where the line is.

I’ve met tons of legit cool dudes.  The cool dudes don’t go to places where there is gonna be some bullshit.  And the other half really don’t give a fuck what anyone else thinks – AND they have enough going on to back it up.

There is a chicken and egg situation with this, obviously.  If you come on strong, the chick barks at you, and you don’t back down – many a chick will assume that based on your behavior towards you – you are the man that you say you are.  The man that doesn’t take shit from anyone, least of all her.

I’m not mad at the RSD camp by any means. I think I’ve learned something from everyone who’s ever been in the game. Either what to do/what to say and what NOT to do/say.

I I do like the idea of immersion, basically getting a personal trainer for pick up – but to get muscles you gotta eat right, rest, and hit the gym religiously. On top of that, you have to be very mindful of your workouts and keep track to get top results.

A good commercial immersion plan is probably the ideal way to learn game.

How I learned the game?
– I read some stuff online
– I had faith in it, because it made logical sense to me
– At first, I went out a bunch and did nothing, too much Approach Anxiety
– Then I got serious.  (I got my mind right)
– I went out and tried the stuff I read

– When the words didn’t work, I changed the delivery. I changed the delivery because I had faith in the words and in the logic. I didn’t change the words.

– Once I had the delivery down (what to emphasize, when to pause, when to communicate NON-verbally), I was off to the races.

– Certain stories/routines/ideas would get predictable responses. They called it “chick crack” back in the day. For example, any sort of story that is “boys vs girls” – the girl is going to take the girl side, and she’s going to know what boys always say.

– Once I knew which directions a chick would turn, I could then have the right secondary response. I knew how to respond to her reaction. So I was playing the game 2 levels deep. Knowing how to handle her somewhat predictable reaction is basically what makes a conversation look good from the outside. Because then it looks back and forth. (because it is truly back and forth).

Like playing Ping Pong, beginners aim to keep the ball on the table because that’s fun and a challenge.. You hit the ball to where the other person can hit it. Because if you keep slamming it, the other person has to go chase the ball. Making it less fun for the other person, and ending the game.

Anyway, more and more reference experiences of my own + reading the experiences of others doing a lot of the same stuff, and finding that they had some of the same issues and came up with solutions – that built into knowing how to handle many more situations.

To me, if you learned of game from the internet – this was basically the path.

Now, i’m not so sure if people learn this way.

I’m pretty sure the PUA boot camp model doesn’t work because the Army Boot Camp is 9 weeks long, 24 hours a day. – 1,512 hours to break down your Civilian (blue pill) thinking and turn you into a member of the military (red pill) And then to become a true soldier the government forces you to live like a soldier and do what a soldier does. Carrot and stick, Pleasure and Pain. And even with that, guys wash out even before they hit combat. Guys that go to combat deal with even more that all the training in the world can’t seem to prepare them for.

So to bring this back together

You can break down the game to it’s parts. You can teach it as a system of interaction, and basically do mini-missions or small chunk your game.

The real learning isn’t going to come from the books, but from your own real world feedback.



Started From the Bottom

So the scenario presented was that a guy really down on his luck had these qualities
– Early to mid 30’s
– Fat, Poor Physical fitness
– Career not going where he wants
– No ladies
– Spends too much time online
– No good friends
– Smoking, drinking, etc

Honestly, this isn’t really a nightmare scenario.  This is pretty typical.  Most of America is obese, and all of us are slowly sliding into poverty.  Given how much porn, video games, online, food, and alcohol is out there to not make you think about your own situation – this is DEFAULT.

So if a dude like that was looking for game advice, what would you say?

The comments on the thread were the standard Red Pill advice. Mainly that he needs to get in shape in order to get girls.  Always remember that PUA did that already.  PUA already figured out that getting ripped, jacked, shredded, etc was not the promised land.  You can go to various body building forums and find all sorts of forever alone posts and lots of guys who generate attraction but don’t know how to handle women.

BUT…let’s not throw out health and physical fitness as being unimportant.  Far from it.  As I get older, health and physical fitness is far more important to me than it is to get girls.  Chicks are easy though not straight forward.  Health is straight forward, but not easy.

In terms of the game, I’ve seen guys basically transform themselves thoroughly by picking up a physical activity that was a little bit competitive and a little bit social.  The competitive aspect keeps them going when other guys who go to the gym for vanity purposes give up.  It’s not about looking good, but about performance.  It’s part of the reason that Cross Fit was so popular initially. (Now, if you talk to some people, it’s basically a cult.  It’s female cousin is Soul Cycle)

The social aspect is really about talking to people you don’t know, but have this artificial common bond with. That develops your social skills in a good environment.  (It’s not a good idea to try to pull from this nascent social circle because you have no skills.  But friends of friends are fair game)

Training for a 100 mile bike ride, or a Tough Mudder, marathon.. etc. This would knock out a lot of the lifestyle aspects of game and optimize everything that most guys are looking for.

Though physical fitness doesn’t solve the women problem directly, it does build a good base upon which to make the next move.

Indeed, metamorphosis can give you the sense of potency to really try at the game.

So what’s the problem here?

It’s not like your proverbial couch potato couldn’t come up with this plan. In fact a lot of guys that “have it all together” have done this. The next step of meeting a few hundred women, scores of dates, a dozen relationships – is really just going out and opening your trap.  That’s all this ends up being anyway.  Going out and talking to women, and getting used to their pattern responses, and coming back with a better response that they aren’t expecting.

So all the information is out there. There are definitely more elegant and comprehensive solutions (personal trainer, bar tender, etc)

What needs to happen first before you go from chump to champ.

You have to get your mind right.

The first problem with guys learning game is that they go into it half way

It’s not just clearing out your fridge or getting a new hair cut.  Joining a gym and going to happy hour does not a player make.

The new guy already knows what needs to happen.

He just has to prepare himself to do it.  He has to get his brain behind his actions.


The Lessons of Sansa and Little Finger Pt 1


[Ed – This will be a long, pic heavy post.  Best to be read on lap or desk top]

Let’s pour out some Dornish Red for a fallen pimp.

Petyr Baelish (Puh-tire in the audiobooks, Peter to everyone else) was a young square (not a squire yet) out of the Finger Islands.  He was short and slight and from the smallest island, so Pimpin P became Little Finger.  Not a name he was actually feeling.

This Broad? Really?

As a scrub he had a thing for Catelyn Stark, who was older than him and not interested.  She friend zoned him. Her little sis (the ugly one – not pictured for a reason) was feeling him.  Cat, gets promised to one of them Stark Boys.  LF was not having it.  Challenged Brandon Stark to a fair one, and got beat so bad that Cat had to beg  Brandon not to kill him.

But he learned.

The start of a player.

I most definitely identify with P. Beezy here.  I think if you’re on the periphery of folks, you realize you can’t “out tall” some of these dudes, you can’t “out muscle” them, you can “out bank” them.  What you can do is, is out think them.

And that’s one of the keys to the game.   Petey B was always one step ahead of men that were “better” than him.  He rose from a low place to almost winning the game by understanding people.

And this is the key insight of game.  At the abstract and at the on set, when you’re talking to a nice young lady – you have an idea of what she wants.  Not just what she says she wants, but what truly gets her to react.  This is not just her true self, but her hidden self.  A lot has been said on what women truly desire, most instructively by women themselves. My Secret Garden WAS a classic read by player’s in the 90’s, that for reasons many a player 20 years later has dropped. The inadequate modern equivalent is the 50 Shades of Grey series.  But understanding romance novels and reading those types of reviews used to be something players would kill some time with.  Cosmo as well.  Even if the “surface” stuff isn’t true – what these things do is focus a woman’s attention.  Too many folks even on my side of the game think that they can force a woman to think a certain way.  That’s not how it works.  What media does is get them to think about certain things.  While everyone is yelling about this political gaffe or some environmental horror – no one is watching as their pocket books get fleeced.

So let’s get into some lessons of Little Finger and how he rose, before he fell.

Look to the future.

One of the most valuable things you can learn on the journey.  Men that never were reminisce on what they might have been.

Lemme switch gears a second and talk about my favorite movie of all time.  No Country for Old Men.  This is one of the 2 scenes that make it my favorite of all time.

All the time you spend tryin to get back what’s been took from you there’s more goin out the door. After a while you just try and get a tourniquet on it”

Flight not Might

Petyr is counseling Sansa to be agile, like he is.  In terms of game, your secondary competition are other guys. (Your primary competition is your mind)…  So the best part of besting the Whales in VIP and the Bulls on the dance floor is outmaneuvering them.  Be it by physically blocking them out, by getting a lock in from the girl, or piquing her interest and then taking her out for a smoke.

Stop Playing a Victim and Take Action

In terms of life advice, this is always solid.  At this point in the story, Sansa has been on a downswing. LF is not just trying to raise her spirits, he’s trying to get her to channel that pain into action.  He’s actually giving her GAME, whether or not she (or GRRM) recognizes it.

Never Suffer Fools

Be they at the club, or your “wing man”, this is solid game advice.  When I was learning the game, I stayed away from anything mind altering.  Furthermore, a drunken kiss on the dance floor is one thing, but anything more I want a sober person to share that with.  Have the chick high on lust and desire, not MDMA.  I’m not trying to moralize you guys, but as a black man that has dipped in and out of the vanilla – don’t expose yourself to risk that is unnecessary.

Play Your Game

A little bit of an echo of above, but I know some of my biggest supporters aren’t really with all the mental stuff that I focus on.  If you’ve got money, if you’ve got height, if you’ve got muscles – you can play to those strengths.  The money guy uses his cash judiciously.  He doesn’t do VIP, he rents a place closer the action.  The tall guy might show up at NBA all star weekend (where he might get mistaken for someone, lol), but he doesn’t spend a lot of time at the Hip Hop nights (where he’s another tall dude amongst other tall dudes).

The man with muscles goes to a whisky/wine tasting showing off the guns through a dress shirt.  As Arnold said, when you drive a Ferrari you don’t need to speed, because everyone knows your fast.

If it Ain’t Broke…

Petyr has always been bullish on men’s boorish tendencies.  Men have certain desires, and he supplies them.  It’s rarely for the price that others bargain. This particular aphorism is that you can trust in men’s lust.

It Ain’t Where You From, It’s Where Ya At

Genetics isn’t destiny.  Of course this is self serving for a social climber – but there is an absolute truth of it.

Smarten Up Nas

In this scene Sansa is trying to play the straight ahead game, the Stark game. She wants to be virtuous and true – but everyone around her is lying.  They’re leading her by her lack of game.

Reputation Matters

Petyr is being cheeky with this one, but his rep for being slimy is something he actively cultivates.

^And this is a perfect example of it.  Earlier in the series Petey tries to get Ned to take the reins of power to start his reign.  Instead, Ned takes the high road and pays for it eventually with his life.

Staying Unpredictable by being Predictable

This is one of the keys to indirect.  If you go with the full court press from the second you meet a girl – the girl knows what you want and she can move accordingly.  Now when you fit her profile, it’s all groovy.  But it’s up to her.

Indirect game is getting into the conversation, and having the girl not entirely sure of when the standard approach behavior is going to come.  But as you get into the conversation – she gets involved in the conversation and loses track of “whatever “move” this guy has planned”.

Knowns vs Unknowns

This is sort of where I tend to shine in the game, and where I’m trying to get you guys to shine.  For Petyr, the element of surprise is THE element.  You think you know him, but he gets what he wants from directions you cannot expect.

It Ain’t All Good

Another lesson of tough love, but Sansa is clinging to her blue pill version of life, where the good guys win. Where the people that are supposed to win do.  Such is not the case.

No Half Measures

Got to torture the idea to get some game out of this, but when you deal with guys in your set trying to either blow up your spot, or steal the girl, you can’t always appease – sometimes you have to cut out their legs underneath them.

An easy way to answer an alpha test is to agree, “yes, and”, take it to the next level.  A young player can usually get past a dude trying to throw salt or a chick trying to see if he’s worthy.  But one of the elements that few are prepared to go along with is when you lay bare their intention in front of the girl

You – “yeah, and after I rescued the school bus of babies…”

Hater – ” Yeah whatever dude, blah blah blah”

You – “Hey man, you don’t need to try to so hard, just tell the girl you like her…”

^”Exposing” him – a lot of guys don’t know how to ride with that.

Don’t Count Me Out

Again, LF has to keep his spirits up and his eye on the ball through affirmation. But these aren’t self affirmations, but knowledge he drops on people he comes in to contact with.  Jewels is what the hip hop generation calls them, but the point of the jewel is not only that saying them to yourself increases your own potency, or that spreading it to others helps.  When they react to what you say in a positive manner – that makes you double down on what you’re talking about.

The “second order” effect is often stronger than what you say.   If you tell a chick you’re the man, that’s whatever.  If she learns about it from other people (social proof, reputation, pre-selection), that’s stronger.  But when she witnesses greatness – that supercharges whatever you’re doing.  We’ll talk about second order game later on.

Paranoia as a Tool

To an extent this scene is about LF gaslighting Sansa.  He’s getting her to fear everyone BUT him. In terms of the game, this is when you take the chick away from her friends and have her chilling with your cronies.  When a chick is not with her people, by herself, a lot of guys will press their advantage.  On unfamiliar with ground or in new situations, the girl relies on you.  This is a FALSE trust.  This will actually be part of LF’s fall, because he’s trying to isolate the girl in her own environment.

A girl’s reverse game, how she uncovers guy’s who aren’t actually good dudes, is that she brings you into her world and gets you to fail.

We’ll come back to this as well.  Social Isolation by telling Sansa to trust no one and only trust him backfires. It can be a good strategy – but here is LF not playing the game well.

A few more lessons from LF, and how he fell (on the show.  Book Petyr is alive and kicking it)